[vdr] Re: time-shift patent case?

[˙so-8859-1?B?SORt5GzkaW5lbiBKb3Jp?˙jori.hamalainen@teliasonera.com>]

> From: Sascha Volkenandt
> > > Has someone followed the patent case with tivo regarding the time-shift?
> > >
> > > Some opinions if that might affect vdr?
> >
> > Only for the poor US-guys ... But no problem in europe.
> 
> Yeh something's going wrong there :-)
> 
> But anyways, how can the possibility of reading a file from 
> another position 
> than it's written to be patented? :P

That 'you' have been granted a patent isn't a much.

Tivo may have a time-shift patent. But we can still use it and if tivo
want they can try to have licensing fees of their patented technology.
So Tivo needs to be active and sue for infringement of patent.

After that 'we' can start process of proving that their patent is already
known technology, so all we must prove that their patent claims is publicly
known information prior to their patent. Key element is that if this was
public information prior Tivo applying the patent (meaning patent filing
date).

Also about analyzing of the patent. The system described in patent file
hasn't anything to do with the patent. It describes potential usage of patent.
What matters are PATENT CLAIMS. They are marked with numbers at paragraph start.
Patent claims are the patent.

--------------
Without saying about Tivo patent (so completely based on text "how can the possibility
of reading a file from another position...") counter claim is simple IMHO.

With example, Unix systems make a log (appending to end of file) and user can
read log file from different position at the same time it is written. Like
VDR doing a user.log and you see it with less/more. And this has been known
for ages. It doesn't matter if the file is MPEG stream or log file if patent
claim is that "reading from other position than writing".

If this doesn't 'unpatent' the patent, then we can start looking that
what other patents are in patented area. Like if someone has patented 
"writing to a disk" then probably this record/read is not so big step forward
(obvious for engineer that you can read what you write) so if in this new patent
discoveries are minor..
--------------

So generally patents can be applied and granted (patent offices make money of
it). But validity can/will be proven/checked later if someone starts to ask
for license fees or saying that I've the rights for this technology so you
must remove it.

So if someone has information about VDR type of stuff and timeshifting
and can prove it to be public (posted to a mailing list or usenet news, magazine etc)
and it has been done prior 1998 (actual patent filing date) the Tivo's
patent is easily unpatented by claiming that timeshifting was publicly known
and announced idea.

---------------
You can find the patent with "US6233389", name is "Multimedia time warping
system". Hopefully link will work for you with your native language:
http://l2.espacenet.com/espacenet/viewer?PN=CA2333460&CY=fi&LG=fi&DB=EPD

Claim 1:
"A process for the simultaneous storage and play back of multimedia data, 
comprising the steps of: ..." 

First thing came into my mind that multimedia players have buffered and
replayed back that multimedia data from streaming buffer with pause, rev and ff
technologies (jump). And this has been done prior 1998.
- is there enough of invention to do it on live tv-signal
  - does that really matter?
  - on claim they speak multimedia data, not tv-signal. Multimedia data can
    come from tv-signal but as well as 'storage device'.
- many companies has broadcasted live tv-signal via IP network over MPEG
  at 1995-1997.
  - Xing mpeg player could store and 'time shift' that
  - IP network is not issue on patent, nor CPU/DRAM/IDE-bus.

For VDR users claim 1 says:
"providing at least one Input Section, wherein said Input Section converts said specific program to an Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG) formatted stream for internal transfer and manipulation;"
- CONVERTS specific program. VDR doesn't convert, it stores original MPEG signal.
  - it converts other signal (analog) to a MPEG stream
	  - so if my opinion matters, Tivo's patent won't describe VDR system.
	  - so United States VDR users can continue using VDR freely
		- VDR Analog TV -plugin might be other issue.. :-)

Best regards, Jori Hämäläinen


-- 
Info:
To unsubscribe send a mail to ecartis@linuxtv.org with "unsubscribe vdr" as subject.